Viktor Orban made a surprise visit to Vladimir Putin at the beginning of July.
Source: Alexander Zemlianichenko/dpa
The Pulitzer Prize winner and historian Anne Applebaum has been studying autocracies, the mechanisms and, above all, the network behind them for years. Before Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban gives a speech in the European Parliament in Strasbourg, Applebaum spoke to ZDFheute about Orban and the EU, Vladimir Putin and autocratic warning signs. About power and money. And about what gives her hope.ZDFheute: Ms. Applebaum, Viktor Orban has given the Hungarian EU Council Presidency the slogan: “Make Europe Great Again” – a clear reference to Donald Trump.Anne Applebaum: Orban used this slogan to draw attention to himself. I very much doubt that Trump is interested in, or knows about, the Hungarian EU Presidency. Orban is using foreign policy, including this EU Council Presidency, to increase his legitimacy in Hungary.
American journalist Anne Applebaum…
Source: dpa
… has been awarded the Pulitzer Prize and writes, among other things, for the magazine “The Atlantic”. Her new book “Autocracy Inc.” appears in German on Thursday. It sheds light on how the autocrats of this world support and support each other – even if they have different ideological ideas.
Exclude Orban from the EU?
ZDFheute: Can the European Union somehow get Hungary to take a European course again?
Applebaum: It is important for Europeans to listen carefully to how Orban talks about them and Europe. He always speaks about himself with a distance from Europe, from Ursula von der Leyen, but also from other European countries.
Orban does not see himself as part of the European community. He does not see himself as a full, functioning member of the European Union or NATO.
Anne Applebaum, journalist and historian
He openly sides with Russia. A country that not only wants to occupy and destroy Ukraine, but is also openly carrying out sabotage throughout Europe: with a political propaganda campaign.
At least as long as Orban is prime minister, it seems to me that the European Union will not be able to exert influence over him or Hungary. The EU would be better off if it started expelling him.
Anne Applebaum, journalist and historian
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ZDFheute: So say Hungary should be kicked out of the EU?
Applebaum: It is quite clear that Hungary, under Orban’s leadership, does not want to be part of the European Union. He is not interested in European issues and does not want to strengthen the EU. In the future Hungary may have a different government and be a different country. Because I don’t want the Hungarian population, the majority of whom are not in favor of Orban, to be excluded from the European Union. But at least a temporary suspension would be justified.
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Roll back autocratic structures?
ZDFheute: We see this in Poland with the election of Donald Tusk as head of government. How easy is it to reverse autocratic structures and strengthen democracy again?
Applebaum: It is very difficult to repair the damage caused by an autocratic party whose goal was to capture the state, to take over state institutions and reshape them in their favor. The situation in the Polish justice system is particularly dramatic. That will be occupied for many years with which judges are democratically legitimized and which are not.
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ZDFheute: You just spoke about the “state being captured” – how does that work, how do autocrats expand their power?
Democracies are often not abolished by a coup or a military coup. Most of them collapse because democratically elected leaders change the rules of the system.
Anne Applebaum, journalist and historian
Applebaum: Sometimes in the judiciary, sometimes in the flow of information, sometimes the electoral system is changed. In the case of Hungary, Orban made several changes to the constitution to improve his chances of victory.
“Club of Autocrats”
ZDFheute: How do you recognize something like that in the beginning?
Applebaum: Political parties that use this language, that present themselves as the only legitimate party, that say “only we have the right to lead,” or that call all their opponents enemies and traitors – all the parties that say such things, are willing to change the system to strengthen themselves. We have seen this several times in Hungary, the PiS party tried this in Poland.
ZDFheute: Is there a point in history where this “Club of Autocrats,” or “Autocracy Inc,” as they call it in their book, basically started?
Applebaum: About ten years ago: 2013 was the year when the Chinese Communist Party issued a document listing the dangers facing the party. Number one on the list was Western constitutional democracy. This is the moment when it became clear that we are an ideological opponent for the Chinese government. And that it is in a “war of ideologies.”
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In Russia, the turning point was 2014, with the revolution in Ukraine and the invasion of Crimea. That was the moment when Putin saw, I think, what could threaten him in the future: a broad movement against corruption. Because everything that has to do with the rule of law and human rights is in a certain way a threat to his rule. Putin has seen that he has to take a stand against this – not just in Russia, but worldwide.
Whether in China, Iran, Belarus, Venezuela, or in many African countries, Russian mercenaries support those in power. All of these countries have recognized that they must work together so that their desire for the rule of law and human rights does not become too strong.
Anne Applebaum, journalist and historian
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ZDFheute: You talked about corruption – how much is it about power, how much is it about money?
It’s a lot about money. What distinguishes the dictators of this century from those of previous ones is that they are almost all billionaires.
Anne Applebaum, journalist and historian
Applebaum: Often we don’t know why they have the money or where exactly it is, but we do know that they, their family and their closest allies have a lot of it. The desire to protect this money is one of the strongest reasons why they are so opposed to civil engagement and civil discourse.
ZDFheute: You dedicated your book to optimists: What makes them optimistic?
Applebaum: I am optimistic when I see how many young people are politically active, whether in the USA or in Poland. More so than in my generation. People understand what’s at stake, what’s important. This generation understands what our values are and why they are worth fighting for.
And to be honest, the Ukrainian population makes me optimistic: I have been to Kiev seven or eight times since the beginning of the war. And of course there is a lot of suffering there, but I have seen no evidence that they want to give up or sacrifice their country. The fact that they still want to fight in the face of all the challenges and hurdles, that’s great. And I don’t think we give them enough credit for that.
The interview was conducted by Lara Wiedeking, correspondent in the ZDF studio in Brussels.
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