LA NACION interview with Pope Francis: “I want to go to kyiv, but on the condition that I also go to Moscow”

ROME.- There is no Vatican peace plan, but the Pope revealed during the interview that there is a “peace service” which the Vatican is working hard to put an end to the brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine. Although he considered it highly unlikely that a meeting between Vladimir Putin y Volodimir Zelensky in the Vatican, said that it is plausible that the a worldwide gathering of delegates which could mean a turn in the dramatic war in the heart of Europe that has already entered its second year.

On the other hand, he did not rule out that, due to its characteristics, the Russian aggression against Ukraine could be considered a genocide. He also reiterated that he will only go to kyiv if he also goes to Moscow. “I am willing to go to kyiv. I want to go to kyiv. But on the condition of going to Moscow. I go to both places or neither”, he said, considering that for him a trip to the Russian capital “is not impossible”. He finally distinguished that speaking of Putin as a “cultured” man -as he did lately- does not imply a moral judgment on the person.

-As you know, I have just been there, I saw the devastation with my own eyes, the schools, the hospitals, the houses of the people destroyed, villages that no longer exist… As you know, this time I was in the Donbass… The mass graves. It’s not just my Greek Catholic friends who talk about genocide. In fact, the whites are all, women, children, and an attempt by the Russians to cancel, to exterminate a people is clearly seen, because they bomb schools, culture, theaters, to exterminate the Ukrainian people. You speak every Sunday and Wednesday of a martyred people. My question is, can you also talk about genocide?

It’s a technical word. It’s a technical word genocide indeed. For example, in the case of the Armenians there was a lot of discussion, of course the Turks were opposed, until it was certified that it was genocide. Technically I wouldn’t know how to define it. But obviously when schools are bombed, when hospitals are bombed, when shelters are bombed, the impression is not so much to occupy a place, but to destroy, it gives the impression. War has a series of ethical rules. I don’t like talking about the ethics of war because it is a contradiction in the term, but come on, a way of proceeding, no. My grandfather, who was in the Piave, told me that the war with the Austrians ended at six in the evening. And there there was no border or trench anymore and the Austrians came here, the Italians there, they exchanged cigarettes. And, one interesting thing that the grandfather recounted was that they had orders from their closest superiors, not from the generals, to shoot up. And, sometimes, in the afternoon encounter with the enemies they would say ‘a general is coming tomorrow, be in the trenches because we are going to have to shoot straight’. That is the ethics of that time, trying to save the person. When I see this, that not only are war professionals killed, but there are innocent victims, it worries me a lot. And there, going back to your question, I don’t know if this is genocide or not, they have to study it, people have to define it well, but it is certainly not an ethic of war to which we are accustomed.

-Yes, they are war crimes… Now another question, in the last two interviews you gave these days, you spoke of Putin as a cultured person. And the question is, can a cultured person at the same time be behind the war crimes that we have seen in a year? Yesterday they launched 81 missiles, including hypersonic, against the civilian population…

-(Putin) He is cult. He visited me here three times as head of state and you can have a high-level conversation with him. He is cultured. We talked about literature once. A man who not only speaks Russian, he speaks German perfectly, he speaks English. He is cultured. A culture is something that is acquired, it is not a moral profession. They are two different things.

– Are you frustrated that you have not been able to speak with Putin on the phone since he invaded Ukraine? I think you had said that he called you once for his birthday, the previous one, his 85th birthday. He never spoke again, right?

-No. The second day (of the invasion) I went to the Embassy, ​​I offered to go there. Minister Lavrov answered me saying that he thanked me so much, that they took it into account but for the moment obviously not. Now, at this moment, the Vatican is doing something more diplomatic to see if something can be achieved.

-Here I have another question because, as you know, China presented a peace plan. There is talk of a peace plan that Lula could present and there is also talk of a peace plan from the Vatican, as Leonid Sevastianov, president of the World Union of Old Believers, married to a Yazidi soprano, a friend of Putin and Kirill, came out to say. …

Yes, I write to him.

– But, is there a peace plan from the Vatican?

-Not a peace plan, there is a peace service, which, by discretion… but there are several heads of state who are concerned, right?

Is there a peace service?

-A desire to serve peace. For example in India, Modi is very worried. And Modi is a balanced man who can perfectly call to dialogue with both. An example. There are other heads of state. And under the table work is underway. My relationship with the Russian ambassador here is excellent. A man whose credentials I received seven years ago… Well, now it changes, right? Son of a Ukrainian mother, Russian father, he knows the conflict well. He is a very serious, professional man, you can talk. And while he can talk, let’s go forward.

Is a meeting in the Vatican between Zelensky and Putin credible?

-So like that, Zelensky and Putin, I don’t know. But a world meeting of world delegates on this is plausible. There is an Israeli group that is working on this as well. Several that probably come together and can do something, right? The Vatican works.

-Good. You spoke twice on the phone with Zelensky, right?

– Twice, yes.

-And lately?

-No. She asked Mrs. Zelensky for an audience, but in the end she suspended her with the latest bombings and said that she did not suspend her, but rather that she was putting it off until she could travel.

-The Good Samaritan picked up the battered man in the street and comforted him. Couldn’t a trip of yours to kyiv take place in that perspective?

-I am willing to go to kyiv. I want to go to kyiv. But on condition of going to Moscow. I go to both places or neither.

-Yes, but Moscow is impossible…

-It is not impossible.

-It is not impossible?

I’m not saying it’s possible. It is not impossible. We hope we can do it, huh. Eye, there is no promise, nothing. I didn’t close that door.

– But Putin closes it, or not?

-But that’s where he gets distracted and opens it, I don’t know.

-[Risas] I like that optimism.

-The war hurts me, I do want to say that. The war hurts me.

– Returning from South Sudan, you said that the whole world is at war, in self-destruction. Did you imagine 10 years ago when you were elected that you would have to lead the Catholic Church in such a disastrous situation that you described from the beginning as a third world war in pieces?

-I didn’t imagine. I had my first shock with this reality when in 2014 (on the centenary of the start of the First World War) I went to the Redipuglia cemetery and cried. No one noticed. A few years later, on November 2, which I always go to a cemetery to celebrate, I went to celebrate at the Anzio cemetery, an American cemetery, and there are the graves of the soldiers from the famous landing at Anzio. I was looking, I told this several times, the age of the people, the boys… 20, 21, 19… then I cried too (…) And today the same thing is happening.

– A pope from the end of the world, outsiderWas it the just choice of the Holy Spirit to face all this?

-If one thinks a little, each pope faced this problem of war. In his time, John Paul II said very clear and harsh things, but today it is clear that the war is now global.