A conflict with the gypsies will bring us down as a nation –

– Are the demands of those who rebelled in Garmen, who refused dialogue with the other side, clear?
– They want the world not to be what it is. They want reality to turn out to be a dream. The Roma are becoming a part of us and this is how we will have to live if we want to live in our country. The Bulgarian ethnic group, which is used to living in a country where there are fearful gypsies and silent Turks, will no longer be able to live as it is used to.

– The expert on Roma issues, Antonina Zhelyazkova, says that the ghettos have been eradicated, that there is no going back and that we must learn to live the hard way from now on. Do you agree with this statement?
– Agree or not, this is a fact. At one time, they forbade children to wear sneakers, but they did, no matter how much we discussed them. According to various estimates, the Roma are between half and one million people, the Turks are another million, that is, the two minorities are nearly two million out of a total of seven. Bulgaria does not, of course, take any serious measures for the demographic situation. It’s not quite dropped, but in a few years it will be.
Bulgarians should start thinking about the Roma like the Americans think about the Negroes, like the French – about the immigrants from the former colonies, that is, as a part of their lives. Another thing will happen. Bulgaria will start importing guest workers, there will be completely new foreigners. And we imagine that we can drive her to the old man?

– What should we do?
– Let’s study. According to Confucius, there are three ways to learn. The first is through reflection. It is the cheapest and the best. The second is through imitation. One looks at what others are doing and does the same. The third is from experience. He is the most expensive and the scariest. When you get spanked a few times, you eventually learn. A fourth way has not been invented.

– Do you see attempts to use the situation politically?
– No. There are attempts, but they are not new. The patriots point the finger at the DPS, the DPS – the patriots. Familiar. If a political force had inspired the situation, I would have been calm. “Attack” used to go in front of the mosques, but there was no war. The scary thing is when the fire burns on its own. As long as someone lights it, you can take action against the arsonist.

– What happened is probably not a surprise if we have carefully observed other similar conflicts. Why did the so-called Roma integration fail? In contrast, it seems to me, to the Bulgarian ethnic model.
– The conversation is long and I’m afraid of roughing it up. But I will say it. Bulgarian Turks are much more Bulgarians than Turks. A nation’s strongest characteristic is its fertility pattern. The FRG and the GDR lived separated by the Iron Curtain, but the birth rate in both countries was exactly the same. Kosovo and Albania lived in two universes. Albanians – under Enver Hoxha, in an insane, patriarchal, supposedly communist state. The Kosovars – in Tito’s Yugoslavia, with trips abroad and relative freedom. The Albanian door was tightly closed, but the birth rate was the same in Albania and in Kosovo.
The Turks in Bulgaria have the fertile behavior of Bulgarians. And emigrants in Turkey give birth as in Bulgaria – one or two children. The majority of those with whom I have spoken, when they say “we”, they mean Bulgaria. The Turks are close to us, they are a type of Bulgarians. It is not difficult to integrate them. In addition, Bulgaria wisely admitted DPS, which has been involved in the country’s governance for the longest time of all other parties. The Turks were given chances to develop, a Bulgarian Turkish bourgeoisie was born. Of course, if we’re really stupid, we can break that too.

– Isn’t the past what separates us?
– The problem between Bulgarians and Turks is not at the population level. Zahari Stoyanov, who cannot be suspected of love for the Ottoman Empire, testifies in his “Notes on the Bulgarian Uprisings” that the tensions between Bulgarians and Turks are political, at the level of the state, troops or geopolitical views. But they are not at the population level. There are no attacks on Turkish villages against Bulgarian ones and vice versa. Whoever gives Batak as an example does not know what he is talking about, it is about Mohammedan Bulgarians. There is a basic balance between the Turkish and Bulgarian ethnic groups. Here, in an artificial way, a conflict can be ignited or it can be political.

– What is the difference with Roma?
– There the tension is at the level of “people”. The huge cultural distance plays a role. I will give just one example. Bulgarians, as people of modernity, place children at the forefront of their values. Roma love their children, but shelters are full of Roma children. They follow the patriarchal model of several thousand years ago, which existed everywhere and was preserved among them. However, go to a nursing home to see if there is a gypsy. There isn’t. We love our parents, but the Bulgarian thinks it is possible to send them to a nursing home in some situation. With the Roma, this is absurd! With them, the pyramid of values ​​is reversed, the old person is valued.
The cultural distance between the Roma and us is hard to erase. The direct integration of the Roma is impossible not only in Bulgaria, it has also failed in other places around the world.

– Is it not possible with education?
– Integration generally proceeds according to the following scheme: I take, for example, a Ghanaian and educate him in a medical university abroad. After its completion even in London to start work, the hospital will be filled with Ghanaians, what is left for Ghana itself. The doctor will take his uncle as his assistant, his cousin as his nurse. This is how an elite is gradually created. Integration through education is a classic way. But it doesn’t work with the Roma.

– Why?
– Educated Roma cease to be Roma. The distance in culture is so great that when you educate a Roma in Bulgaria, he becomes a Bulgarian. The educated Roma do not return to their own to pull them forward. This circumstance hinders integration not only here, but everywhere in the world. The Roma live in their own world, in their own culture, which they accept as a superior culture. From the point of view of outside observers, it may be funny, but in the same way they see ours. Every culture is airtight. Neither we succeed in penetrating theirs, nor they – in ours. There are two ancient ethnic groups that are insoluble in the environment – the Roma and the Jews. The situation must be understood. Let’s ask ourselves who will suffer from a conflict. The one with something to lose. Whoever has nothing to lose wins. Therefore, who will suffer?

– Therefore, we, not the Roma.
– You said it.

– A few years ago, you shared the idea that the education of the Roma should start with the little girls from this community.
– This is the ring that needs to be retrieved. The main obstacle preventing the Roma from taking a step towards their modernity is the position of the woman in the Roma family. By marrying, the gypsy buys labor power and stops making efforts to support himself.
In our country, a kindergarten has been established, where girls from the Roma community are brought up. The project belongs to Elena Kabakchieva, but it is only one successful project that, unfortunately, does not receive serious support. Most Roma integration projects end in a shameful way – the money is stolen in favor of those who hold conferences where empty stories are spoken. If all the money for these projects had been given to the Roma, it would have been better.

– As the situation escalates into intolerance between the two communities, is it too late for this idea?

– It’s not late. It is too late if we plan to leave Bulgaria. We have to understand that this is how we will live for a long time. There are unsolvable problems. The world is full of unsolvable problems. This is one of them. Unless we kill each other, which I hope we won’t.

– Are the politicians to blame in the last 25 years for letting the genie out of the bottle?
– Sure, but that’s not the main thing. Another time has come. And we must realize the new circumstances, instead of capriciously stamping our feet and repeating: “I don’t want it to be like this.”

– Will the Self-Defense Forces do any work?
– They will arise, but the Self-Defense Forces border on the Ku Klux Klan. Today it’s self-defense, tomorrow it’s attack. There is no right or wrong in ethnic conflicts. Everyone feels right there.

– Are the sentiments among Bulgarians becoming radicalized?
– There was almost no nationalist vote in Bulgaria, now it hovers around 300,000-400,000 votes, maybe it will go to half a million.

– The state should take its place and trust in the institutions should be restored – is there such a lesson from Garmen?
– It’s a mantra. The state intervenes to prevent the two sides from fighting. What else to do? Bulgarians complain that Roma build illegally. But if we push their houses and just throw them out on the street, where will they go? In Paraguay? Where will we get housing for the Roma? That costs money. The state should increase taxes by another 20% to build housing for the Roma? No one will agree. Bulgarians must realize that we are in a new situation and we must live in it. But they don’t want…